Expert Q&A :: Using NAA defence records

For our Expert Q&A Thursday, November 29 we had Tonia Vincent and Leslie Weatherall from the National Archives of Australia to discuss how to use the NAA defence records to find everything on your Anzac. Thanks again to Tonia and Leslie for giving us all the benefit of their experience. Please find the Q&A transcript below.

Don’t forget our Expert Q&As happen every Thursday night on the Inside History Magazine facebook page.

When: NSW – ACT – VIC – TAS: 8:30-9:30pm AEDT | QLD: 7:30-8:30pm | WA: 5:30-6:30pm | NT: 7:00-8:00pm | SA: 8:00-9:00pm | Weekly on Thursday nights

Tonia Vincent’s top tips for using NAA defence records:

1.  I would stress that it is important to have as much information as possible to differentiate between service men and women who share the same name. Useful additional information is service number, date of birth, place of enlistment or place of birth or next of kin.
2. Although we have the service records for everyone who served in WWI and WWII, we also have other interesting records such as Air Force casualty records, court martial records, ships logs, merchant navy service records and repatriation files.

Summary of links from the Q&A

• Australian War Memorial
• Australian War Memorial Collection search: http://www.awm.gov.au/search/collections/
• Australian War Memorial contact form: http://www.awm.gov.au/contact/
• AWM World War One diaries: http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm4/
• National Archives of Australia ‘Ask us a question’ collections index: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/askquestion/index.aspx
• NAA collections search: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs10.aspx
• NAA contact form: http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/contact
• NAA fact sheets: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/index.aspx
• NAA access to archival records: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs10.aspx
• NAA Family History collection: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/family-history/index.aspx
• NAA NameSearch: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/NameSearch/Interface/NameSearchForm.aspx
• NAA PhotoSearch: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchStartup.asp
• NAA RecordSearch: http://naa12.naa.gov.au/
• NAA Service Records: http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/service-records/index.aspx

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Transcript of Expert Q&A – Using the NAA defence records to find everything on your Anzac:

Comment: IHM: Welcome everyone, thanks for joining us!Please welcome Tonia and Leslie from National Archives of Australia.

Comment: IHM: Tip: Keep refreshing your browser to see the answers as they appear.
A. Tonia:  Hello everyone
A. Rod: Tonia and Leslie, welcome.

Q. From Rod: Many on the WW1 Diggers also served in WW2 but their service records are not available off the NAA site … the WWI records simply is a page displaying their WW2 service detail. Question … Will the WW1 records be made available without having to pay the fee charged per the WW2 records? A recent experience for my grandfather, a vet of both wars.
A. Leslie: @ Rod As all of the WWI service records were digitised as a gift to the nation, the Archives also digitises for free the service records of people who served in both WWI and WWII (and even when they served post-WWII as well – I have encountered two instances of this!). Up to now this has been done on an ad hoc basis when researchers identified individuals with service in both of the world wars. However, we are currently in the middle of a project to digitise the service records of all personnel who served in both WWI and WWII.
A. Sharon: Rod, I got my uncle’s World War 1 records for free and had to pay for the World War 2. Once you pay for them they are then available for others to see and use.
Q (b): From Rod: Will that include the individuals providing service in depot and camps located in Australia?
A. Sharon: Yes, Rod, my uncle served in WA for WW2 and I have purchased his records.
A. Tonia:  @Rod If the service person served in WWII we would digitise the record, irrespective of whether or not they have service outside Australia. We have digitised all of the WWI service records, including those who were located in Australia.
Q (c): From Sharon: Yes, Tonia, that was my case. I paid for a copy and now a digital copy exists. I have a lovely folder of my uncle’s records. Leslie, do you have any contacts for the war memorial private photo collections? Would they have them labelled and indexed? Or do I just go to the AWM’s web site?
Q (d): From Rod: Thanks Tonia … will recheck my list again in a couple of days. Will post the list I can’t access on the NAA Facebook page … is that the best way?
A. Sharon: I think you need to order and pay for them on the site Rod.
A. Leslie: @ Sharon, you should be able to search the AWM collection via their website at http://www.awm.gov.au/
A. Tonia: @Sharon I recommend you contact the AWM’s research centre – the contact details are at http://www.awm.gov.au/contact/.
A. Sharon: Thanks Leslie & Tonia, I will contact the AWM. I searched the site and found nothing but contacting them could yield results.

Q. From Helen: I have found lots of info from service records/view digital copy, thank you. But where a record says ‘access status: not yet examined’ when will it be available to view digital copy?
A. Sharon: Which war?
A. Tonia: Hello @Helen. We have tried to streamline the process for purchasing service records. Normally if a record in our collection has the access status ‘not yet examined’ you need to submit an access application for it to be examined and released to the public. However, if you wish to purchase a digital copy to view online, you don’t need to submit an access application. When you click on the ‘Request copy’ button, you will be taken directly to our e-commerce site. We endeavour to examine and provide copies of service records that haven’t been examined within 90 days.
A. Tonia: @Sharon – I think WWII is the one Helen was referring to. Many of these records have not been examined, and you need to purchase a copy if you wish to have WWII records digitised.

Q. From Simone: Were there many portrait shots taken of WW1 Soldiers? And those who enlisted under alias names why did some do this? Mine is a German orientated name can you enlighten more as to back in this time why he would do that? Specifically this man I am speaking about. Albert Alexander Schuetz (Spelt Schultz in NAA records)
A. Leslie: @ Simone, Hi Simone, thank you for your questions, there are not any official collections of photos from WWI. You may have luck finding photos from this period at the Australian War Memorial private records collection, if the photo was donated to the Memorial. In regards to enlisting under an alias, using an alias to enlist came down too many reasons, being under age, criminal record, or as you have mentioned foreign names. The most obvious reason for a German to use an alias to enlist would have been associated with the current war threat. Germany was one of the major instigators of both World War One and World War Two. Therefore, people living in Australia of German descent were classed as a threat to National Security, and interned for the duration on the War.
Q (b): From Simone: Was it that bad to have a German sounding name to want to enlist or were some refused for being of German descent?
Q. From Travis: Hi… With all the various military hospitals around Australia, will the medical records be eventually transferred to the NAA and digitalised? Apparently these records (for whatever reason) are under strict lock and key making it difficult for groups like the Friends of Cheltenham and Regional Cemeteries Inc. trying to argue with the Office Australia War Graves that a particular soldier died from war related illness in order to have a war grave erected. No doubt these records will benefit researchers.
A. Leslie: @ Travis, due to the sensitive nature of these records, they cannot be released, at this time. For further information about the examination process of Commonwealth records you can refer to our Fact Sheet 10 http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs10.aspx
A. Travis: Thanks Leslie. The service men were from WWI and the curious thing is that their medical records relating to injuries during the war are in their war service records and freely available. But for some reason, their medical records from the 1920s are so restricted with no workable process to gain access for such purposes as to provide evidence to the OAWG. The sad thing is that many soldiers lie in unadorned graves.
A. Sharon: Travis, I have that issue. My great uncle died from post-war medical conditions. He is in an unmarked grave in a huge cemetery in WA. They won’t do a headstone unless we pay for the grave and it is thousands of dollars. They have done a plaque for us in Sydney which has incorrect details on it! I need to get it fixed. We got the plaque in Sydney as that is where the majority of the family are. Good luck.

Q. From Leonie: Are there service records for people who served in the VDC in WWI?
A. Leonie: WWII
A. Leslie: @ Leonie, NAA does have records of Civil Defence forces in some states, are you looking for a particular person?
A. Leonie: My grandfather Bryan McRae was in the VDC. I have a record for him from the AWM site but wondered whether any formal service records were kept which could be obtained.
A. Leslie: @ Leonie, I have found a service record for a Bryan Sheery McRae born 10 March 1900, is this the person you are looking for?
Q (b): From Leonie: Yes that is him! Can I purchase a digital copy of that record through the website?
A. Leslie: @ Leonie, yes you can, his service number was N401268
A. Leonie: Thank you Leslie. I will get straight onto that.
A. Tonia: @Leonie Our WWI service records have all been digitised and can be viewed online. Go to http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/index.aspx

Q. From Alison: Is it possible to access the original records of Courts of Inquiry held in the field to determine fate of a particular soldier? My Great-Uncle’s service file only has this file note: “Proceedings of Court of Inquiry in the field on 11-3-1918, Finding: Killed in Action 12 -10-1917, Australian Section 3rd Echelon G.H.Q. British Expeditionary Force. …”
A. Leslie: @ Alison, Some of the Courts of inquiry records did survive, if you would like you can send through a request to us a NAA and we will conduct further searches for you. http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/askquestion/index.aspx

Q. From Sandra: Where would we find the records of the 16th Casualty Clearing Station that was at Gallipoli in WW1?
A. Tonia: @Sandra – you would find information on the 16th Casualty Clearing Station in the unit diaries for this unit. The AWM have the unit diaries which you can find online at http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm4/
A. Sandra: @Tonia the 16th is not listed there.
A. Tonia: @Sandra – I just looked and you are right. I don’t understand why it isn’t there (I checked under sub-class 26 – medical etc). I recommend that you contact the AWM research centre, as they may be able to advise how to find the unit diaries – http://www.awm.gov.au/contact/
A. Sandra: @Tonia Thank you 🙂
A. Alison: Sandra: Regarding your query “Where would we find the records of the 16th Casualty Clearing Station that was at Gallipoli?” There is some information on Gallipoli Clearing Stations in Bean’s official history, relevant section located a http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awmohww1/aams/vol1/part1/awmohww1-aams-vol1-part1-ch14.pdf NOTE The Australian Casualty Clearing Station is not given a number in this record, simply referred to as “Australian CCS” see page 286 line 19 reference to “Australian Casualty Clearing Station” . On page 290 line 17 ref to British Casualty Clearing Station. On page 290 line 30 ref to Austn CCC”. On page 314 line 17 ref to casualty clearing station. From this reference http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/PR86/028 of a Gillison, Andrew (Chaplain, b.1868 – d.1915) who died of wounds at 16th Casualty Clearing Station, Hill 60, Gallipoli, on 22 August 1915, Gillison’s papers are lodged at AWM as a collection relating to the service of Chaplain Andrew Gillison, AIF, Australia, at sea, Egypt, Gallipoli, 1914-1915. Collection consists of the original diary kept by Chaplain Gillison from 1 November 1914 until approximately August 1915; a notebook with details of burials on Gallipoli; Gillson himself was buried at Embarkation Pier cemetery.

Q. From Louise: I had 8 great uncles WW1 and have digitised records. My great uncle Trooper George Gavin No 1566 12/5 lighthorse served in Palestine and Egypt. A year of medical records not recorded 1917. His brothers, my father knew his uncles well, had first hand account of gunshot wound in a raid by LH. As there is nothing on paper and he never received TPI as he was discharged with malaria etc in 1919. I have read Desert Column etc but any information appreciated. Five Gabin brothers were from Pechey near Toowoomba. James kiled Fromelles 1916 with 31st Batt AIF. All other 4 5th LH.
A. Louise: **GAVIN
A. Leslie: @ Louise, there may be a repatriation file on your great uncle George Gavin, which may shed some light on the wounds received you can send a question through at http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/askquestion/index.aspx
A. Tonia: @Louise I am not sure where you might find information on your uncle’s gunshot wound, especially if it wasn’t in his official service record. You may find information about the battle he was wounded in and his injury may have been recorded in the unit diary of the unit he was in – the AWM have these records http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm4/
A. Louise: Hi Leslie, no repatriation as they knocked him back, he was devastated that his 5 years and injury not acknowledged. If u sight record u can see timeline missing large section. Very frustrating. We have only recently had rising sun placed on his grave at Pinaroo. Any other suggestion please. Willing to spend time going over amy unit casualty files that may assist, my daughter works in RAAF Canberra.
A. Sharon: Wow, so much information available that I wasn’t aware of! Those diaries could be good to read too!
A. Christine: I obtained the repay papers for my grandfather who originally refused a war service pension but then applied again in 1959 – it contained a handwritten account of his injuries which no-one knew. It even includes his autopsy – the whole 380 plus pages are now all online.
A. Christine: That should read Repat – auto correct struck
A. Louise: Thanks Tonia. Going on Matt Mclaclan battlefield tour Somme to see Jims grave Rue Petillon Jan 7. Would be nice to get some closure for my dads family.
A. Leslie: @ Christine, It is always great to hear a successful story, I am glad the family found out about your Grandfather’s service.
A. Tonia: @Louise – if you use the online form that Leslie mentioned above, one of our reference officers will look through our collection and see if they can find anything that may help.
Q (b): From Louise: @Tonia – files gor 5 th LH grom 1918. Do I go back through other LH to find info 1917?
Q (c): From Louise: Sorry Tonia – tired – do I go back through other LH unit diaries as 5th Division is from 1918? Anywhere else I can look?
A. Tonia: @Louise for the unit diaries, I understand they are arranged by year, so you would need to look at volumes for 1917

Q. From Carmel: Are these listed along with WW1 records? This question came up the other night at our Genies meeting. Someone had a photo of a relative in uniform but not able to find a record for him.
A. Carmel: he was listed as a cook but this is all she knows
A. Leslie: @ Carmel, If the person did enlist in WWI there should be a service record available via our Website

Q. From Wendy: Just arrived 🙂 Interested in the ‘Court Martial Files’ also for my Great grandfather Emmanuel Penneyston and how to access them as ‘not yet examined’ … I think you may have already answered that.
A. Leslie: @ Wendy, all of our Court Martial records are listed on our RecordSearch database, if you register as a researcher you can submit an Application for Access online.
A. Wendy: Thanks 🙂
Q (b): From Wendy: Can I get a copy of my uncle Spr Peter Penneyston’s (KIA 2nd Aug 1970 SVN)service file now held by NAA also ‘not yet examined’ and does an ‘inquiry’ into the incident that killed him exist ? A 2RAR Pte D.L Thompson was also KIA , Lt Bill Rolfe and 2Lt Pat Cameron 2RAR were severly wounded when a booby trapped 155mm shell exploding near them.
A. Leslie: @Wendy, there is a file for a Peter Lawrence Penneyston, is this the person you are looking for? If so, you can purchase a copy online, via our website
A. Leslie: @ Wendy, If you would like, please send through the information regarding the inquiry to the above link, and we will conduct further searches for this record.
A. Wendy: Yes that’s my Uncle Peter Leslie , all the Penneystons listed at NAA are descendants of Spr Emmanuel Penneyston , sons and grandson . Thanks Tonia and Leslie for all your great advice

Q. From Helen: Asking for a friend – his father Harvey Sydney Gresham enlisted in AIF in 1917, and says on enlistment documents that he had been in the Militia 1915-1917. They are finding it difficult to get any info about that period or about the Militia. Any advice?
A. Leslie: @ Helen, We may have the Militia file, please sent a request through to us at http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/askquestion/index.aspx
A. Helen: Thanks Leslie – I will pass that onto the Gresham family.

Q. From Rod: These questions related to the 1st AIF… 1. How or where can the details of POW’s be found by the unit in which they served? 2. Many guys enlisted and served in the Depot / Training Camp (eg. Armidale and Rutherford NSW) but were discharged or transferred to other units. How can these be found? The NAA RecordSearch database is good but you need to have a name first … if the name and/or service number is not known is there a way to find them?
A. Tonia: @Rod I recommend you send an email to ref@naa.gov.au – one of our reference officers will look into it for you.
A. Leslie: @ Rod, Hi Rod, the information you seek may be available in the Unit Diaries. The Australian War Memorial holds Unit Diaries. The Memorial can be contacted using the following link http://www.awm.gov.au/contact/
A. IHM: Here’s the link to the Australian War Memorial Research Centre tools as well :: http://ow.ly/fFHDE
A. Rod:  Leslie NAA…. unfortunately the War Diaries, in my unit researching 33rd Battalion, starts when they left England to go to France. Does not include details at the training camps in Armidale, or Rutherford in NSW nor Lark Hill in the UK With that been said I have about 3,400 names and thanks to the NAA RecordSearch have been able to view most and estimated 120K-160K pages … just trying to fill in the gaps. Many thanks for NAA … Leslie and Tonia … very helpful
A. Sharon: Rod, have you tried Armidale NSW’s Heritage Centre linked to UNE? Or Maitland NSW library as Rutherford is near there (not sure where you are). Good luck. As a matter of interest, there are still ammunition/factory sheds in the Rutherford industrial area – amazing to walk inside them.

Q. From IHM: Wow, that’s nearly an hour! A question for Tonia – What would be your top tips for using the NAA defence records?
A. Tonia: I would stress that it is important to have as much information as possible to differentiate between service men and women who share the same name. Useful additional information is service number, date of birth, place of enlistment or place of birth or next of kin. Although we have the service records for everyone who served in WWI and WWII, we also have other interesting records such as Air Force casualty records, court martial records, ships logs, merchant navy service records and repatriation files.

Comment: IHM: Don’t know where the time goes! Thanks again to Tonia and Leslie for joining us tonight! We’ll publish the questions, answers and links from tonight’s session in a blog post this coming week. Any questions we missed tonight will be answered in the Q&A transcript on our blog and posted here.
A. Sharon: Thanks to NAA’s Leslie & Tonia – I have learnt heaps. Will certainly refer back to these posts.
A. Leslie: Thank you Sharon
A. Leslie: Thank you everyone.
A. Tonia: Thanks everyone, I’ve really enjoyed this evening.
A. Nat Archives: Looks like this was a fabulous Q&A!
A. IHM: It was great Nat Archives, busy!